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Thread: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

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  1. #1
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    Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    I'm new to this board so I'd like to say HELLO to all!

    About the topic, I'm planning to build a race car with fiber glass body. I want to use BMW V12 engine (V12 is a real sports car engine!! 6 or 8 cylinders just ain't enough and 4 cyl engines are only for sewing machines imho ;D) with Porsche trans out of 911 or 911turbo.
    I guess the adaptor plate can be made by local car specialist shop. Or??
    I plan to use vented disks all round and performance shocks and springs (coilovers are too expensive and hard to get where I live).
    So now we get into the body. I've been thinking of Countach or Diablo (with heavy mods), or Ferrari F50. Interior is custom-made by myself (just can't find any interior I completely like, if even there's any, they're so damn expensive).
    I don't need an exact replica, I just need optimal performance.
    Any advices welcome!!
    Thanks,
    WTg.
    Nothing can be compared with a sound of V12.

  2. #2
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    First off, welcome. This is a great site for kit info. Another excellent site is lambolounge and might also be more to what you are looking toward as they are all doing various things to lambo kits.

    Sounds like a pretty ambitious project.

    V12 will be sweet kit to look into. It will most likely require a custom fab frame. There are a couple guys on here that can work with you to get the frame done.

    There is also the NAERC frame plans that you can start with and adapt the lengths of the engine bay to fit the V12. These are direct replica Diablo plans from what I recall so they should be a good place to start.

    Start with getting the entire length of the engine and trans together so you can make sure you will have enough room in the engine bay area so there is no or minimal interference.

    DR Motorsports is supposed to have the best Diablo body from what I hear but NAERC also has the body. If you are doing heavy modifications to the body anyway, you can probably get a half built kit somewhere cheaper and start cutting it up or altering in the way you want

    Good luck and keep us all posted.
    308 Ferrari replica
    Prova Countach 5000QV

  3. #3
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    I looked around for some nice wheels today (as said, I'm not going to build exact replica but just some raceday car that would be fun enough to drive also on street) and fell in love with Enkei EVO5. Like those: http://adaptivestrategies.com/ENKEI-EVO5.jpg.
    Now to get these wheels (guess 'Hyper Black' finish would be perfect) I guess I have to go to Germany. Or if anyone knows where I can get those in Finland or Sweden i'll be thankful for info!
    Also guess I'm using 295/R18 performance tires rear and 245 or 255 R17 front. Sizes over 295 are almost impossible to get here
    Also I did some research on fiberglass bodies and custom tube frames and found some guys in Europe who are making these. For me its more easy to calculate in euros than in dollars.
    http://auto-styl.com/as_5b.htm F50 is sweet!
    http://perso.wanadoo.fr/sefap/8-2_SI...es-GB/PF4.html F40 too but the price is
    http://www.artiplast.pl/oferta/oferta.htm Wonder what chassis they're using? All the package only 3700 Euros.
    Ha... Found a pic: http://www.artiplast.pl/1/k16.jpg
    Guess it will be okay when I let my friend do a bit more welding and strenghtening for the frame. I can't unfortunately do it myself, cos my eyes are a bit 'screwed' up too much reading books when I was kid ;D
    Or other option is to order good chassis from USA or Canada somewhere. I'm just doing research on such a sites.

    All have nice day!

    WTg.
    Nothing can be compared with a sound of V12.

  4. #4
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    Ok did some research now and composed a building plan for F50 (once some years ago I helped my dad build Countach and Diablo replicas, so I think I'm already gone through there, I need something I've never done before... Need to take a challenge with building experience ya know...)
    So first I need a plans for chassis. I talked with a friend and we decided to make the chassis ourselves cause the shipping cost would be real pain in the @ss due to weight of chassis, when I could buy some performance stuff for that money!
    Nobody offering better air intake system for 5.0 V12, so I found out that I have again to make it myself... Nothing hard I guess, done the same thing for Ford Escort Mk2 before.
    Now looking for steering wheel also w diameter 280-300 mm, not more (about 11,4" in US if I calculated right)..
    Guess my F50 plan is coming together nicely.
    As soon as possible I'm starting making molds for the body.
    And for all those Ferrari spies here I'd like to tell: I'm making this car for only myself and not going to manufacture the kit, so stay calm!

    Cheers,
    WTg.
    Nothing can be compared with a sound of V12.

  5. #5

    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    i would look into the ElTorro polish murcielago replica or that F40, because the others just look too out of shape for me. do a search here for El Torro
    Professional 3D, web, graphic, architectural, interior, and CAM design at affoardable prices.<br />Any questions: voicemail/fax (323)281-0583<br />sales @ rt-network.com

  6. #6
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    Now next question...
    What's the best glass choice for F50 ?
    I wonder if there's any glass that can be taken from production cars to fit F50 project with some cutting maybe.
    Though I have experiences with making car body details from scratch I can't imagine going all glass myself ;D
    So if anyone knows about what production glass may fit let me know.
    Thanks,
    WTg.
    Nothing can be compared with a sound of V12.

  7. #7
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    I have heard that the BMW V12 engine is a pain in the ass.* It can not be rebuilt, so you must use an engine with low miles, and the fuel injection is a pain.* It is also under-powered compared with V8 options. That's what I hear.

  8. #8
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    Who said it can't be rebuilt?? Every engine can be rebuilt. I know many mechanics in Scandinavia that can do miracles with engines.
    The case is that:
    First I planned modify Ford 2,8i. Then it seemed that I buy this engine for 1000 EEK and install 30 000 in it to get it to 300 hp. BMW V12 is already doing 300hp (newer than 1995 engines doing 326hp) and V12 from 850Csi is doing incredible 380 hp in stock! Which V8 can be compared with this? V12 cost 6000--9000 EEK, the same time V8 with 200 hp cost 15 000.
    As I've been working with V12's before and also V8's, I know that V8 needs a lot of $$$ to get the same power that V12 has in stock or with little mods. Because, in USA 500+ hp V8's are sold for around 6000 $ if I'm not wrong. I could get 1000+ hp from V12 with that money.
    Yeah, agreed that V12 can be pain in beginner mechanic's ass ;D
    Plus the sound of V12, can be easily made to exotic supercar sound, as V8's will always sound like American musclecars not exotics.

    Other engine options (maybe more expensive too but I'm really into V12 with a project like this. Original F50 had V12 so the replica has to have it too! It's senseless to build a supercar body around small engine)
    What I guess is not very expensive and I like: V12 from '92 BMW 850 Csi. 380 hp.
    Now more expensive and hard to get: V12 from MB 600 SE, SEL (1991) doing 408 hp in stock.
    Year 2002 600-series MB. Almost 500 hp in stock!!!
    Jaguar XJ12 '93 doing 318 hp.

    Guess I'm not going far over 550 hp with the project because it weighs only 1050 kg as calculated and I need it for driving on street also not only track.
    So when making a F50 replica go for the Engine that's like original. Of course 1.6 R4 can also be put in but what a sense would it make?? :

    Still looking for glass for F50. Anyone??
    Nothing can be compared with a sound of V12.

  9. #9

    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    well if you're so set on an f50 kit, I would go for the american kit, fiero stretch version:


    it's much more accurate. if you were not giong to use a fiero, make a custom chassis and use Ultima GTO glass since it's affordable:


    the bmw v12 is very expensive to maintain, more than v8s, and replacing all engine compoments necessary (including ECU) and tuning it up to 500hp will cost upwards of $8000.
    a cheap american engine will easitly get you that 500hp for $4000, but it will always sound like an american v8. a v6 could get you 600hp (but not cheap) and would get you the right sound, but it would almost have to be turbo (twin turbo?) or supercharged. either way, with all of those, you need a $500 audi 5000 / renault transmission or a $1200 porsche transmission, and all of those need a $600 adaptor plate to fit the engine. then you also need to play with wiring harnesses, ECU's, exhausts ($500+) and much more..

    most people start off thinking the body and chassis will cost about $5000 to $10000 to finish, and that most of the costs go into the engine. in reality, the body, chassis, and interior will always come out to about $25000 if you use something like a fiero or mr2, or about $45000 if you use a custom tube chassis. after that, it's all mechanical costs.
    Professional 3D, web, graphic, architectural, interior, and CAM design at affoardable prices.<br />Any questions: voicemail/fax (323)281-0583<br />sales @ rt-network.com

  10. #10
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    Re: Kitcar building plans (advice needed)

    Well the prices are damn different there in USA.
    In Sweden and Estonia the BMW V12 costs as said around 8000 EEK, that's about 500-600 USD, and the engine you get for it is low mileage and excellent condition. You can also get 'bad' engine with about 150 000 kms for 3000 EEK but I won't go that way. If I was about to travel to Germany I would even get the engine for half a price because Germany is making BMW's and they have a s#itload of BMWs there, all so damn cheap.
    I only plan 'mild' tuning for the engine, for start. Later all can be upgraded for better performance. At first I'd like to get the car running
    Tuning costs for the V12, as I found out talking with people from tuning workshops, are:
    3700 EEK for new ECU (will add 22 hp to excellent condition engine, less for not so good engine... but hey.. I'm ofcourse using the best condition engine available.)
    2500 EEK for new polished 2 twin exhaust mufflers + 5000 EEK for new custom exhaust from engine to mufflers.
    2000 EEK for air intake system.
    About porting and other such jobs I get them for free because my friend in Stockholm has a workshop where he's repairing and building kit cars, parts, and classic cars.
    Later coming maybe nitro system that's 11 000 EEK.
    So how much hp's now...? Calculator shows up about 350 + nitro, that's about 500. Good enough for start, as the weight of car is planned to be not more than 1250 kg.
    The body will also be made in Stockholm, Sören's workshop.
    Chassis will be custom tube and made in Estonia.
    And hey, American V8's aint cheap here in Scandinavia! European V12 costs a half of American V8. That's because American cars are more rare and expensive here. I know you could get a project Mustang Fastback there for about $5000, well that's roughly 60 000 EEK, and buying a project in exactly same condition from Europe (IF you could find one) will cost you 8000 EUR = 125 000 EEK!
    Somehow it's just so - tuning parts are very expensive in America, and V8 engines cheap. And here in Scandinavia is all in reverse!
    About interior, I'm not going to use Ferrari lookalike interior, but I will make it all my own way and exactly the way I like it. So custom seats, 4 point harnesses etc with black or grey leather upholstery what I'll do myself. Laugh or not but the upholstery thingie cost me ridiculous 400 EEK (for materials bought today. Work is my own). Here all stuff is like, you have to own lot of friends and pals to get things half priced or for free even.
    And still I'm going to make the car only for myself and for street and track. I'm not after exact replica, but we are still going to make exact dimensions for the body.
    I know making exact replica is expensive but I have a bit different plans I need just a car that's different from all others and can perform well.
    Cheers
    WTg.
    Nothing can be compared with a sound of V12.

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