Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 23

Thread: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

  1. #1
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    8,151

    Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    I have been thinking about alternative fuels for my car. Primarily eGas Cell Construction or Hydrogen gas for fuel into my 3800 Buick.

    http://www.waterfuelcell.org/index.html

    Have any of you experience in converting an engine to Propane Gas to make this concept work?

    At first glance, hydrogen would seem an ideal substitute for these problematic fuels. Pound for pound, hydrogen contains almost three times as much energy as natural gas, and when consumed its only emission is pure, plain water. But unlike oil and gas, hydrogen is not a fuel. It is a way of storing or transporting energy. You have to make it before you can use it — generally by extracting hydrogen from fossil fuels, or by using electricity to split it from water.

    And while oil and gas are easy to transport in pipelines and fuel tanks — they pack a lot of energy into a dense, stable form — hydrogen presents a host of technical and economic challenges. The lightest gas in the universe isn't easy to corral. Skeptics say that hydrogen promises to be a needlessly expensive solution for applications for which simpler, cheaper and cleaner alternatives already exist. "You have to step back and ask, 'What is the point?'" says Joseph Romm, executive director of the Center for Energy & Climate Solutions.

    Though advocates promote hydrogen as a panacea for energy needs ranging from consumer electronics to home power, its real impact will likely occur on the nation's highways. After all, transportation represents two-thirds of U.S. oil consumption. "We're working on biofuels, ethanol, biodiesel and other technologies," says David Garmin, assistant secretary of energy, "but it's only hydrogen, ultimately, over the long term, that can delink light-duty transportation from petroleum entirely."

    The Big Three U.S. automakers, as well as Toyota, Honda, BMW and Nissan, have all been preparing for that day. Fuel cell vehicles can now travel 300 miles on 17.6 pounds of hydrogen and achieve speeds of up to 132 mph. But without critical infrastructure, there will be no hydrogen economy. And the practical employment of hydrogen power involves major hurdles at every step — production, storage, distribution and use. Here's how those challenges stack up.

    HURDLE 1: Production
    The United States already uses some 10 million tons of hydrogen each year for industrial purposes, such as making fertilizer and refining petroleum. If hydrogen-powered vehicles are to become the norm, we'll need at least 10 times more. The challenge will be to produce it in an efficient and environmentally friendly way.
    FOSSIL FUELS: At present, 95 percent of America's hydrogen is produced from natural gas. Through a process called steam methane reformation, high temperature and pressure break the hydrocarbon into hydrogen and carbon oxides — including carbon dioxide, which is released into the atmosphere as a greenhouse gas. Over the next 10 or 20 years, fossil fuels most likely will continue to be the main feedstock for the hydrogen economy. And there's the rub: Using dirty energy to make clean energy doesn't solve the pollution problem-it just moves it around. "As a CO2 reducer, hydrogen stinks," Romm says.

    Capturing that carbon dioxide and trapping it underground would make the process more environmentally friendly. In July, General Electric and BP Amoco PLC announced plans to develop as many as 15 power plants over the next 10 years that will strip hydrogen from natural gas to generate electricity; the waste carbon dioxide will be pumped into depleted oil and gas fields. And the Department of Energy is largely funding a 10-year, $950 million project to build a coal-fed plant that will produce hydrogen to make electricity, and likewise lock away carbon dioxide to achieve what it bills as "the world's first zero-emissions fossil fuel plant."

    Whether carbon dioxide will remain underground in large-scale operations remains to be seen. In addition, natural gas is a limited resource; the cost of hydrogen would be subject to its price fluctuations.

    ELECTROLYSIS: Most of the remainder of today's hydrogen is made by electrically splitting water into its constituent parts, hydrogen and oxygen. This year, a PM Breakthrough Award went to GE's Richard Bourgeois for designing an electrolyzer that could drastically reduce the cost of that process. But because fossil fuels generate more than 70 percent of the nation's electrical power, hydrogen produced from the grid would still be a significant source of greenhouse gas. If solar, wind or other renewable resources generate the electricity, hydrogen could be produced without any carbon emissions at all.

    NUCLEAR POWER: Next-generation nuclear power plants will reach temperatures high enough to produce hydrogen as well as electricity, either by adding steam and heat to the electrolysis process, or by adding heat to a series of chemical reactions that split the hydrogen from water. Though promising in the lab, this technology won't be proved until the first Generation IV plants come on line — around 2020.

    HURDLE 2: Storage
    At room temperature and pressure, hydrogen's density is so low that it contains less than one-three-hundredth the energy in an equivalent volume of gasoline. In order to fit into a reasonably sized storage tank, hydrogen has to be somehow squeezed into a denser form.

    LIQUEFACTION: Chilled to near absolute zero, hydrogen gas turns into a liquid containing one-quarter the energy in an equivalent volume of gasoline. The technology is well-proven: For decades, NASA has used liquid hydrogen to power vehicles such as the space shuttle. The cooling process requires a lot of energy, though-roughly a third of the amount held in the hydrogen. Storage tanks are bulky, heavy and expensive.
    COMPRESSION: Some hydrogen-powered vehicles use tanks of room-temperature hydrogen compressed to an astounding 10,000 psi. The Sequel, which GM unveiled in January 2005, carries 8 kilograms of compressed hydrogen this way-enough to power the vehicle for 300 miles. Refueling with compressed hydrogen is relatively fast and simple. But even compressed, hydrogen requires large- volume tanks. They take up four to five times as much space as a gas tank with an equivalent mileage range. Then again, fuel cell cars can accommodate bigger tanks because they contain fewer mechanical parts.

    SOLID-STATE: Certain compounds can trap hydrogen molecules at room temperature and pressure, then release them upon demand. So far, the most promising research has been conducted with a class of materials called metal hydrides. These materials are stable, but heavy: A 700-pound tank might hold a few hours' fuel. However, exotic compounds now being studied could provide a breakthrough to make hydrogen storage truly practical. "High-pressure tanks are a stopgap until we can develop materials that will allow us to do solid-state storage efficiently," says Dan O'Connell, a director of GM's hydrogen vehicle program.

    HURDLE 3: Distribution
    Even in portable form, hydrogen is a tough substance to move from place to place. It can embrittle steel and other metals, weakening them to the point of fracture.

    TRUCKING AND RAIL: Currently, most hydrogen is transported either in liquid form by tankers or as compressed gas in cylinders by trailers. Both methods are inefficient. Trucking compressed hydrogen 150 miles, for instance, burns diesel equivalent to 11 percent of the energy the hydrogen stores. It also requires a lot of round trips: A 44-ton vehicle that can carry enough gasoline to refuel 800 cars could only carry enough hydrogen to fuel 80 vehicles.

    PIPELINES: One way to avoid this endless back-and-forth would be to send the hydrogen through a pipeline. About 700 miles of hydrogen pipelines now operate in the States, generally near large users such as oil refineries. The longest in the world is a 250-mile line between Belgium and France. Treating pipelines to protect them from embrittlement and high pressure makes them expensive up front-about $1 million per mile. But once built, they are the cheapest way to deliver high volumes of hydrogen.

    LOCAL PRODUCTION: Given the difficulty of transporting hydrogen, why not just make it where you need it? That's what's done at roughly half the 36 hydrogen fueling stations currently operating in the U.S. Four rely on natural gas; the rest use electrolysis. In 2003, Honda introduced a Home Energy Station that performs steam reformation right in the owner's garage-but because natural gas is the feedstock, it still releases carbon dioxide to the atmosphere.

    A greenhouse gas-free approach would use on-site wind or solar power to produce hydrogen through electrolysis. Honda also designed a solar-powered hydrogen refueling station, which has been operating at the company's California lab since 2001. If the national power supply becomes more eco-friendly, clean electrolysis could run off the grid.

    ON-BOARD PRODUCTION: Several prototype vehicles make their own hydrogen from stored hydrocarbons, eliminating the question of distribution altogether. The DaimlerChrysler NECAR 3, for example, produces hydrogen from methanol. Researchers are also experimenting with more futuristic on-board production technologies, which combine ordinary water with reagents like boron or aluminum to produce hydrogen, oxygen and a metal oxide residue. These, however, are still a long way off.

    HURDLE 4: Use
    Once hydrogen reaches consumers, is there anything they can do with it except drive vehicles? Home energy generation is one other option. The question is whether hydrogen would be more practical than current methods. Hydrogen produced by steam reformation or by electrolysis loses energy when it is converted into electricity. The resulting efficiency is roughly equal to that of today's power plants — which pay a lot less for raw materials. Direct generation of electricity through wind and solar power will also be more efficient for most stationary applications. That leaves transportation as the most promising use for hydrogen.

    INTERNAL COMBUSTION: The most straight-forward approach is to burn hydrogen in an adapted model of your garden-variety internal-combustion engine (ICE). Since little modification is required, these engines are relatively cheap, and 25 percent more efficient than gasoline-powered engines. BMW built its first hydrogen ICE back in the 1970s, and the concept still has legs: Ford began production of a hydrogen ICE shuttle bus last July.
    FUEL CELL: First invented in 1839, a fuel cell combines hydrogen and oxygen to generate electricity without any moving parts. Several different varieties exist, but only the proton exchange membrane (PEM) fuel cell is lightweight and responsive enough to be practical for vehicle use. Though twice as efficient as ICEs, PEM fuel cells are hindered by high prices — even in mass production, they would currently cost about $36,000 each.
    Once the technical hurdles are crossed, hydrogen's huge price tag may still make the technology prohibitive. A recent analysis by the Department of Energy projected that a supply network adequate for even 40 percent of the light-duty fleet could cost more than $500 billion. And that leads to a classic chicken-and-egg problem: How do you get millions of Americans to buy hydrogen-powered vehicles before there's an infrastructure in place to refuel them? And how do you get energy companies to build that infrastructure before there's a potential customer base?

    "Companies are not willing to invest if they don't think there's going to be a market," says Daniel Sperling, director of the Institute of Transportation Studies at UC Davis. "The government has to be behind it. There has to be leadership."

    There's reason to hope the technology will advance even without much government involvement. Hydrogen fuel cells already replace batteries in niche equipment, such as TV cameras and forklifts, and provide power at remote locations, such as at cell phone towers. They even power the police station in New York's Central Park. As these applications continue to develop, they will force advances in technology that will make hydrogen vehicles more feasible. Even then, hydrogen might make the most sense for fleet vehicles that don't require widespread infrastructure for service and refueling.

    Ultimately, hydrogen may be just one part of a whole suite of energy alternatives. Any one of them will involve investing heavily in new infrastructure. Though the price tag will be steep, we can't afford oil's environmental, economic and political drawbacks any longer.
    That brings me to my interest in this technology for FunnyWheels. I am a back yard mechanic, not trying to say I know anything, if knew something I would work for a research firm on the topic. This is but just a small step towards the future, and look how far we have already come. As stated in this article, you don't need to transport hydrogen, it can be made on-site in your car. Do a Google search on Stanley Meyer for more information. So is it up to major oil companies to fund and help develop efficient ways of doing this, I hope not, the government, no to that one too. They can’t run their own households let alone a government seeking a new energy source.

    As creative as many of the members on this site have become, we might be able to build this technology into our cars. Do the math, look at how much this could save us overall, money and environmentally. Even if global warming is made up, what’s the harm in this? This could create an entire industry for us and create jobs People like us in the automotive industry need to learn more now, to better secure the future. This is amazing technology, and I for one am excited. I am doing research now to turn my piece of plastic 355 kit car in my driveway in to a hydrogen fuel cell car, just for fun.

    Dave
    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,182

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    very interesting idea, I've always been interested in lossing fossil fuels, I'd love to turn my wifes already 40 mpg 2007 Corolla into a 22 gallon (water) trip maker from LA to NYC!

  3. #3
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    8,151

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    I think there are enough people on this site to actually make a car come together.
    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

  4. #4
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    8,151

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    248

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    I'd love to see water cars.

    Dave, are you familiar with Stan Meyer?

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    248

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    http://waterpoweredcar.com/stanmeyer.html

    http://www.waterpoweredcar.com/stan.html


    This man actually developed a dunebuggy that apparently ran on only water.

    According to many records, Stan died at the age of 56 after eating at a restaurant.
    Many claim he was posioned by the oil tycoons and the government.
    All his research and the dune buggy were lost.
    and have never been found.

    people have been trying to replicate it ever since.


    http://www.stanleymeyer.com/

  7. #7
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Tampa, FL
    Posts
    8,151

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    They found his dune buggy in a friends basement.

    I am from Columbus and this guy made a fortune making parts for the auto industry.
    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

  8. #8
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    1,182

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    yeah sucks doesnt it, he was killed no doubt about it.

    Think about it, if a single man can create it in his garage then the government can do it too, and if they DONT WANT IT, theywill kill you.

  9. #9

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    Well this is great but the oil companies are going to control it they are already forcing it to be like gas were you have to fill up at a station and not make the cars do it or allow people to purchase mini stations were they could make there own you wait and see if it see the comes about to be the norm the oil companies will control it. To me the best way is electric cars but once again the oil companies are doing there best to kill them. The only way I buy into it is if you can just put water in your tank and not still be restricted by the oil companies
    www.kikkerbikes.com

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    248

    Re: Physical Hydrogen eGas Cell Construction Concepts

    Dave, what ever happened to the buggy?

Similar Threads

  1. Who has a front mounted fuel cell....?
    By pavo_rodddy in forum General Kitcar Chat
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 01-08-2009, 06:54 PM
  2. Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-02-2008, 06:11 PM
  3. Fuel Cell?
    By g_ogata in forum Technical Discussion & Question
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 12-06-2003, 10:59 PM
  4. kit construction
    By boarderguy41 in forum General Kitcar Chat
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-21-2003, 11:00 AM
  5. construction video?
    By Ronnie in forum General Kitcar Chat
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 08-25-2002, 06:41 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •