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Thread: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

  1. #1
    Senior Member joe_murc's Avatar
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    Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    hey guys what kind of 0to60 and 1/4 mile times will this combo do
    fiero stretched chassis with a murc replica kit gm 3800 super charged engine fiero 5 speed manual transmission
    and if the standard fiero transmission don't fit what kind of transmission is a good match with this engine?


  2. #2
    Senior Member murcie-me's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    It (3800SC) will bolt right up to the stock Fiero trans, but I'm not sure what kind of 1/4 mile times you will get. I'm currently building a car for a guy and we are doing the 3800SC swap into the Fiero. Everything is pretty straight forward, and I'm told its the easiest of all the swaps to do, unless you live in CA.! There are so many rules and regulations and special parts you need, its a nightmare!
    Depending on the year of the 3800, they put out about 300Hp, which would make any car FLY! You would have no problem walking all over most Vettes(stock), and alot of other sports cars.
    Without talent experience is worthless

  3. #3
    Senior Member joe_murc's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    thanks for the info murci i live in queens ny i really don't know the red tape i'll hit if i try to register a murc replica

  4. #4

    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    For more information about this swap, abuse the search feature from this site:

    http://www.fiero.nl

  5. #5
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    I have photos of the process to mate a 3800 BOP engine to a Fiero Getrag. The transmission is geared tall but works great. The 3800 in my car pulls like a freight train. It will beat a Porsche Boxter, never got into it with a vette except on twisty roads. I do well there.
    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

  6. #6
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    Here is the process I used posted by Dave Cole. He is another great source for information.

    Trans/subframe/drive axles: 87 GT w/ 5 spd Getrag

    Engine: 94 Bonneville 3800 originally with T60E computer controlled transmission, normally aspirated, Sequential Fuel Injection, SFI (read: computer fires each injector individually). Stock Powertrain Control Module (PCM) is used.

    Clutch: fresh clutch for stock V6 Fiero

    Other: Koni shocks, Yokohama UV+4 on after market 15 in wheels for everyday, Yokohama A008 RSII on 15 inch GT wheels for track driving, shortened shift lever, GT steering wheel and instrument package w/ volt and oil pressure pod, passenger side glove box, tacky but functional
    Holley side scoop.

    Engine and transaxle bolt directly without modification. A custom flywheel has to be made to mate with the *8* bolt crank pattern of 3800. I had the Fiero V6 flywheel modified to accomplish this. I believe the '96 F-body (Camaro/Firebird), which uses the 3800 Series II, has a flywheel
    which may work stock or at least require less modification. I had to find (get this) 5/16"-18 bolts for the crank. That's right - SAE bolts on an otherwise metric car. They had to be very strong with a thin head for clutch disk clearance. I settled on some 190 psi cam bolts from ARP.
    Seems to be fine so far. Starter ring gear and teeth are the same.

    I used the shift and select cables from the Getrag. The 4 cylinder clutch slave cylinder was used as the 2M4 car braided SS hydraulic line would not clear the transmission casing with a stock V6 slave. The 4 cylinder slave was spaced back almost to the end of the mount studs to maintain the same pre-load on the slave internal spring as the stock set up. This should maintain the same slight load on the release bearing as stock.

    I used the two stock transaxle mount locations and replaced the mounts. For the engine, I created 2 new engine mount locations. Both use the stock Fiero engine mount normally placed near the crank. One sits just forward of the engine block between the block and the square cross brace on the sub-frame. The other is mounted to a new plate bolted between the rear toe link nuts. This mount sits up next to the passenger toe link nut. An adapter bracket runs from the rear side of the engine block, over the passenger side drive shaft (with clearance for worst case
    deflection) and to the mount location between the link nuts.

    One important note: I do not have a dog bone. I am relying on the arm than runs over the drive shaft for torque control. I have had a few people express concern over this. I understand, but I can point to 5 k miles of success including approximately 200 miles of hard shifting and driving at the Rockingham, NC NASCAR Speedway road course (weekend driver schools are great!!!!!) plus the day at Waterford Hills during FOCOA 95. Time will tell.

    The new mounts were designed to set the engine about 1/2 inch lower on the passenger side to assist in clearance for the deck lid torsion arms. The alternator needs to be lowered an additional 1/2 inch. This is accomplished via a 1 inch shackle at the rear of two mount bolts. The other bolt forms a pivot. This allows the center of the alternator to be about 1/2 inch lower. A coolant hose under the alternator was shortened to provide clearance.

    Clearance was ground on the unused passenger side stock engine mount flange welded to the sub-frame. About 1/2 inch deep curve was removed for stock 3800 oil filter location clearance.

    The 3 ignition coils and their control base were relocated from a bracket near the forward corner of the engine to the stock battery location about 8 inches away. This displaced the battery to the front of the car. The battery now sits on the custom shaped board placed in/on the inverted
    spare tire. 1/0 welding cable links the battery terminals back to the engine. It is grounded near the spare and on the engine block. A new battery was purchased w/ H2 vent nipples to which I attached vinyl tubing to carry the hydrogen out of the front trunk. I did not want any surprises one day while turning on the vent fan.

    The A/C compressor and power steering pump were removed. The flat idler pulley was replaced by the grooved idler from a 3800 SC engine. This allows the belt to be run with the grooves on the pulley (instead of the flat back). Removal of the compressor and pump, coupled with the
    lower alternator, allows the use of a standard 51 inch 6 groove belt (designation: 510K6). The stock spring tensioner is maintained.

    Fuel is delivered via the standard 85 4 cylinder metal lines. A GT fuel pumps is required as the SFI needs 40+ psi like the Fiero V6 MPFI. The 4 cyl TBI used about 15 psi. Therefore, all rubber fuel lines must be upgraded to Fuel Injection rated hose (100 psi working pressure). I removed
    the crimped rubber hose at the end of each fuel line leaving the metal fuel line terminating near the strut mount. To this I double hose clamped Fuel Injection rated fuel line (3/8 inch on inlet side, 5/16 inch on return side). The inlet side runs to the stock 3800 fuel filter, mounted where the cruise vacuum can was, and is then double clamped. More hose is attached after the fuel filter connecting it to a section of hard plastic fuel line from the Bonneville. This terminates in a quick disconnect feature found on the Bonneville, etc and allows this to be part of the new engine hookup. Return line is similar in construction.

    Stock 85 fuel vapor recovery method was used. A Fiero V6 air cleaner was installed the output of which is the same OD as the 3800 intake. A piece of flexible intake hose connects them. The PCV valve is an integral part of the 3800 intake manifold and requires no hookup or modification.

    Stock coolant return hose on passenger side was used. Driver side was modified to include a reworked 4 cylinder thermostat housing and cap. This allowed for a high point in the system for coolant addition. The radiator is upgraded to a four core unit having the same hose attachment
    points and same overall dimensions as stock Fiero. Stock fan is used. Fan control is accomplished via the PCM or an adjustable bimetal thermostat. All coolant caring hoses were replaced with new including the heater hoses. Longer heater hoses at the engine are required to
    connect the under car pipes to the 3800 pipes located near the passenger strut tower.

    The exhaust system uses the stock 3800 header which wraps around the heads. It exits in the single stock position across from the rear center cylinder. A short pipe is attached here and curves down feeding an upside down "Y". Each end of the "Y" is redirected to feed a baby cat (also called pre-cat, they are about 4 in OD and 7 in long.). These are mounted between the sub frame and the trunk. Each cat's exhaust is turned and heads straight out the back of the car. You can see about 1/2 of each cat's body from the back of the car. The heat shield on the trunk is removed for clearance and Mylar faced insulation has been added under the trunk carpet to compensate.

    Ninety five plus percent of the stock computer related wires are maintained without modification or extension.. To connect the engine and computer (PCM), the Bonneville uses a two piece multi-pin connector that clamps through a hole in the fire wall. This is maintained. The hole
    through the Fiero fire wall is enlarged to accept the larger connector. The PCM is mounted behind the driver seat. All dash instruments and lights are connected except for the "Service engine soon" which I left off. I am sure this conversion leaves the computer a bit confused and sets some codes, but from what I have read none of the codes I expect are set affect the fuel curve, etc so I chose to ignore them. The 94 PCM does not have the capability to "blink" codes via a grounding of a terminal like the Fiero units do.

    Tachometer feeds off the 3 ignition coil control base, Speedometer feeds directly off the transaxle sender in parallel to the PCM input. 3800 oil pressure sender is used to feed the oil gage. The transaxle gear select switch inputs (a 4 bit binary) are jumpered to be in drive continuously.

    Pass Key theft deterrent must be by-passed. I had the ignition key and could therefore measure the resistance of the pellet. A 10 turn pot was matched to this and soldered to the inputs of the stock Pass Key module which will feed a 50 hz "ok" signal to the PCM. A more elegant solution
    of a 50 hz wave generator is suggested but mine works.

    I get 31 mpg highway, 23 around town. HC was 4 out of 250 ppm max (was 220 with the 2.5l) and CO reads 0. This car is mean and green.

    4/17/96

    David
    fieroman@ipass.net
    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

  7. #7
    Senior Member joe_murc's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    wow thanks for the info guys you really know your stuff thanks again

  8. #8
    Senior Member murcie-me's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    Funnywheels,
    WOW!, I wish we lived close so I could just pick your brain whenever I had a question regarding this swap. Its a big task, and I wish I had someone like you around to advise me!
    Without talent experience is worthless

  9. #9

    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    Quote Originally Posted by MURCI-ME
    It (3800SC) will bolt right up to the stock Fiero trans, but I'm not sure what kind of 1/4 mile times you will get. I'm currently building a car for a guy and we are doing the 3800SC swap into the Fiero. Everything is pretty straight forward, and I'm told its the easiest of all the swaps to do, unless you live in CA.! There are so many rules and regulations and special parts you need, its a nightmare!
    Depending on the year of the 3800, they put out about 300Hp, which would make any car FLY! You would have no problem walking all over most Vettes(stock), and alot of other sports cars.
    They are more around the 220 to 260 HP range not 300HP but there are some aftermarket items for them I had one in one of my cars it was ok but did not make me get exited. Your statement about the Vette is bull I have a C5 and none of my Fieros have come close, even near close to it. Anyone that ever compares a Fiero to a Vette is not all there. Sorry, but I own them both and just try to get a Fiero up to 180MPH and you will more than likely end up in the morgue but a Vette will do it every day. Corvettes compete and out run the cars you are trying to copy they are not nothing like a Fiero.
    www.kikkerbikes.com

  10. #10
    Moderator FunnyWheels's Avatar
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    Re: Fiero chassis with 3800sc engine?

    The 3800 SC put out 240HP in 1999, you could get 300 out of it with an underdrive blower pulley, Under blower intercooler, bigger injectors and throttle body, cold air intake, headers and cam, no cats.

    I think they are a great little engine and will pucker you up a little at speed. It is not a good handling car without lots of suspension and tire modifications. One thing you will enjoy will be the great gas mileage you will get with the 3800. I get over 32mpg most of the time and insurance will be very low as comapired to the Vettes. But they are worlds apart. Both are toys, one is a build, one comes finished.

    I like them both.

    Dave
    If you're not confused, you're not paying attention.

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