Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ferrari 308 Replica Rebuild and Upgrade Project

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Forum acting weird.

    Try Again

    -----------------------------------------

    Hello All;


    Need some help with the engine starting on the swap project. Finally got the wiring finished and everything plumbed on the 3.4 swap and went through the process below to get everything confirmed.


    1. I moved the battery up front and used 1 gauge wire running back to a positive and neg terminal setup over by where the battery used to sit in the engine bay. Not using the battery up front yet until I get it running.
    2. From the engine bay + terminal, I ran 4 gauge wire to positive terminal on starter
    3. Confirmed I have E2 on C500 running to solenoid.
    4. Confirmed I have alternator fused wire going to terminal block under C500, and L and F wires from Alt going to B3 and E3 on C500.
    5. The engine is a crate engine so I filled with oil etc. and then put power to the engine bay power terminals but did not hook up power to the power distribution block under C500. Turned the engine over quite a bit to get oil moved around by jumping the solenoid to the + terminal on the starter. This worked fine and no issues turning the engine over on the battery I have. I also had the plugs out so little resistance.


    6. Thinking I was ready to try to start the car, I hooked everything up to the power feeds.
    7. I hooked up the C500 Power dist block to the + terminal on the starter with the red fused link wire and confirmed power to the power dist block so theoretically, the rest of the power grid in the car.
    8. Turned on the key to run position and heard the fuel pump prime as expected. Confirmed fuel getting up to fuel rail and back through the return line
    9. Went to hit the starter (clutch in) and nothing. No click like you might get with a low battery or many be duff solenoid. Just nothing
    10. Tried one more thing to see if it was more power related or more toward the ign circuit. I turned the key to on/run and went underneath again to jump the starter terminals to see if the engine would turn over.


    It turned over but very slow. Tried a few times to jump and then went to pull the battery cables off to start troubleshooting. I found that both terminals on the battery were very hot when I had everything hooked up and turning the engine over by jumping the starter. Checked power at battery and it read 13 volts as I had just finished charging the battery overnight. The battery worked fine when I had the plugs out and was just turning the engine over to get oil moved around. I will get the battery checked tomorrow as well to see if it is bad after sitting for several years.


    My thoughts so far and any help and ideas would be appreciated.


    - Possibly fusible link to ignition switch either not hooked up correctly or blown?
    - With the full power distribution hooked up, I was not getting a hot battery prior to trying to start so not sure I have a large current draw therefore short anywhere but not 100% sure. Will check that tomorrow with an ammeter in the circuit from the battery.
    - Any specific wires I should focus on to see if they are correctly connected within the wiring harness. I had the harness made many years ago by a fellow here but so long ago that anything I was told has fallen out of my head by now.....


    Thoughts or areas to start from anyone?


    Anything would be appreciated.
    Don
    308 Ferrari replica
    Prova Countach 5000S

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Don View Post
      9. Went to hit the starter (clutch in) and nothing. No click like you might get with a low battery or many be duff solenoid. Just nothing
      This sounds like a problem with the Clutch Neutral Safety Switch.

      Originally posted by Don View Post
      10. Tried one more thing to see if it was more power related or more toward the ign circuit. I turned the key to on/run and went underneath again to jump the starter terminals to see if the engine would turn over.
      By doing the above, you bypassed the clutch switch, and the engine turned over (albeit slowly), so that proves there's a problem with that circuit, but it sounds like there's more to it than that.

      Originally posted by Don View Post
      Tried a few times to jump and then went to pull the battery cables off to start troubleshooting. I found that both terminals on the battery were very hot when I had everything hooked up and turning the engine over by jumping the starter. Checked power at battery and it read 13 volts as I had just finished charging the battery overnight. The battery worked fine when I had the plugs out and was just turning the engine over to get oil moved around. I will get the battery checked tomorrow as well to see if it is bad after sitting for several years.
      The lead plates inside batteries do sulfate over time, causing weak current capacity. I doubt that's the problem though since it usually takes several years of sitting for that to happen. Perhaps your battery terminals weren't tight? Or corroded? Or the aftermarket terminals you clamped onto the ends of your cables are loose on the wire?

      Comment


      • Thanks Dave;

        So, I went and got the battery tested and it passed but barely so I just got a new one to confirm no issues.

        I came back and went underneath to check again on the starter alignment. It is, indeed, binding again.... It was working great the other day so I went through the shimming process to no success just now. I had all the shims in place so almost 3/16" of shims and still binding so I think there is another alignment issue versus the just the distance.

        Going to do some googling to see if there is something I am missing.

        And yes Dave, I think you are correct with the clutch switch or possibly a blown fusible link to the ign switch. Will get to that one after I get the start working correctly. Fighting me all the way....

        BTW Dave, your build is looking amazing. Nice front hood work.

        Thanks for the help
        Don
        308 Ferrari replica
        Prova Countach 5000S

        Comment


        • I plan to get out some whiteout or white paint and will be painting the bendix gear tonight to check actual alignment and placement of the bendix gear to see where I need to go with alignment shims.

          More to come but work is getting in the way of progress right now.
          308 Ferrari replica
          Prova Countach 5000S

          Comment


          • Are the flywheel ring gear and the Bendix gear matched properly? Do they come from the same model engine?

            Comment


            • I believe they do..... I had that issue initially where I was trying to mate a '96 starter to the '88 Fiero flywheel I am using and it REALLY didn't mate. I went and got a new starter and started the alignment over again.... I will confirm the starter I got is the correct one for an '88. Wouldn't that just be the frosting where I got it wrong twice?

              Edit: Confirmed the starter fits all year v6 Fieros and, as it turns out, 4 cyl as well.

              Back to the alignment fun.
              Don
              Senior Member
              Last edited by Don; 01-15-2020, 07:13 PM.
              308 Ferrari replica
              Prova Countach 5000S

              Comment


              • Went out tonight and had a look at teh starter and there was already a paint mark on the gear so took a pic below. I also noticed that the gear is already pretty darn worn near the ends and rounding off on the gear teeth. This is a new starter so there is certainly some binding going on but the location of the marks in the paint make it look like it is pretty darn close to the right spot?? Kept the pic full size for more detail when looking at it....

                Maybe still a bit too close to the flywheel? As best I could I also put a 1/8" allen key up and measured between the starter shaft and the flywheel and it was VERY close to 1/8" which seems to be the well known distance for the shaft out.

                Thoughts?

                Don
                Senior Member
                Last edited by Don; 01-16-2020, 03:24 AM.
                308 Ferrari replica
                Prova Countach 5000S

                Comment


                • Hi Don,

                  I was reading about your starter issue. I'm not completely certain but I believe I'm using the 3.4 starter on my car. I can put it up on the lift this weekend and confirm that if you like. I just went out in the garage with a light and tried to look under the car at the starter. If I remember correctly the 3.4 starter is smaller than the Fiero one. Is that correct? If so, That's what I am using and it has been working fine. I was trying to look through my old receipts but couldn't find one for the starter. Let me know if you want a couple of picks and I'll pick the car up.
                  MacGyver
                  Senior Member
                  Last edited by MacGyver; 01-17-2020, 06:45 PM.
                  My Projects:

                  http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...y-project.html
                  http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...-facelift.html
                  http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...430-build.html

                  Comment


                  • Thanks very much Sean. I appreciate the offer. I am now not sure I have the right flywheel in there........all is directing me that way

                    I went out again last night and measured the starter gap with a 1/8" Allen key again and shimmed the starter to where it was pretty much bang on. It took 1/16" worth of shims which is more normal on any other starter I have ever dealt with. Put paint on all the starter gears for contact patch. Turned the starter over and the bendix gear would sometimes retract partial way so I am closer. Contact patch looked pretty good really. In the middle of the gear and then cleaned off outward vs inward which was good. To confirm I was close or if I could improve, added one more 1/64" shim no change and then retracted one more shim so I was at 3/64" and no change. At this point I had worn out the battery so put it on charge and came inside to start investigating.

                    I did a bunch of searching over on Pennocks and various folks used different starters on their swaps. Like Sean, one guy used the '96 starter with no issues. Another used a 3400 SFI starter with no issues. Some used Fiero starter. So, at this point I am "What the hell?".... Looked up '96 Lumina dohc and the flex plate is the same diameter, thickness and number of teeth as the 88 Fiero. 12", .8" and 142 teeth. Again... back to "What the hell?".

                    So now, I have a narrowed thought that maybe after all these years I might have the wrong flywheel. I bought two flywheels so many years ago and used the other one in another Fiero clutch repair with no issues but this one has sat on the shelf for probably 15 years. I am just about of ideas. I am going out this morning to have a wonderful 1/2 hour counting how many teeth are on the flywheel. If it is 142 teeth, or I guess seven if it isn't 142 teeth, I will be pulling the engine and cradle out today to be able to take the transaxle off and get better access to the flywheel. I can do the testing etc. on the engine and flywheel without being on my back under the car.

                    What a bitch this is turning out to be......

                    Any other ideas before i pull the cradle would be great.....

                    Thanks
                    Don
                    308 Ferrari replica
                    Prova Countach 5000S

                    Comment


                    • OK so a half hour later, 142 teeth.....

                      And I looked at both my starters that should work with this flywheel and the Fiero starter has 9 teeth and the high torque 96 starter has 11... And they are both supposed to work with the same flywheel.. At this point, if they both work, I am going back to the high torque as it turned the motor over better so will work to maybe get that shimmed correctly again to see if it works.

                      This so so messed up.
                      308 Ferrari replica
                      Prova Countach 5000S

                      Comment


                      • Wow Don, what a mess. Hopefully you won't need to pull the cradle out again. Is you 96 starter new or rebuilt? I never trust rebuilt stuff. Did you inspect the trans housing and starter casing for cracks causing a misalignment? Are you using the proper starter bolts. I wouldn't think you would need anymore than a couple of very thin shims if any at all. Is it possible your flywheel isn't for a Fiero?

                        I da-nooo… just trying to come up with some ideas.
                        My Projects:

                        http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...y-project.html
                        http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...-facelift.html
                        http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...430-build.html

                        Comment


                        • Since it seems like the only thing you changed between your two first cranking attempts was the position of the clutch pedal, is it possible your pressure plate is rubbing on the inside of the transmission housing? I ask because you said the starter spun the engine freely when you were priming the oil system, but you were turning the engine over by jumping battery power across the solenoid terminal. When you were doing this, you presumably had the clutch engaged (pedal out). Then when you tried to start it with all the circuits hooked up and energized, you had to depress the clutch pedal to close the neutral safety switch, but in doing so, you moved the pressure plate toward the bell housing. If you have an aftermarket performance clutch, it may have a thicker stack height than stock and there may only be enough clearance to the bell housing when the clutch is engaged (pedal out).

                          You could try bypassing the neutral safety switch temporarily to avoid having to press the clutch pedal to crank the engine (just make sure it's out of gear!). If it cranks freely, then your pressure plate is rubbing on the bell housing when you have the clutch disengaged.
                          Bloozberry
                          Active Users
                          Last edited by Bloozberry; 01-18-2020, 11:29 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Ok.... went back to the high torque starter and did more lining up and shimming and it engages the flywheel and releases. I think I just had the shimming out to lunch on it..... took the Fiero starter back and got the refund.

                            So, now on to why I am not getting the fuel pump and ign switch....

                            Progress but still barriers....

                            Thanks for all the input folks

                            More to come
                            308 Ferrari replica
                            Prova Countach 5000S

                            Comment


                            • After some more work on the car, I am now tracking down the power issue to the ign switch etc.

                              When I was beginning down the starting the car road, I was able to turn the ignition switch to ON and the fuel pump would prime as Fieros are supposed to do. After a few of those and trying to start from the ign switch, I no longer have the pump priming.

                              What I have done so far:


                              1. Checked all fuses and found one 5 amp fuse to the ign 2 injectors blown so replaced that. The 10 amp ign fuse looks good but will replace tomorrow anyway just to be sure as I don't have one here tonight
                              2. Checked clutch neutral switch
                              1. When I turn ignition on to ON position, I get 12V at the yellow wire. In reading on Pennocks, that is not supposed to be the case. It is supposed to be zero at ON and then 12V when key is at start position??
                              4. I then checked power to the solenoid purple cable with key turned to start and no power there either.
                              5. I have power to other accessories as my rad fan comes on right away and doesn't turn off and the engine bay fan in the trunk comes on. I disconnected both of those for now until I move on to those issues....


                              Will be doing a pile more searching tonight to see if I can narrow down the issue but does anything jump out for anyone?


                              Thanks
                              Don
                              308 Ferrari replica
                              Prova Countach 5000S

                              Comment


                              • Honest to gawd I hope this is all entertaining to everyone..... I am starting to just laugh now.

                                So. I looked at the clutch the other day when I was working on getting the starter sorted and didn't want to have to push in the clutch every time. I saw the switch with yellow wire to it so thought "Hey, that is the neutral safety switch." So, I pulled it out and shorted it out between the two wires, one yellow, and all was well. So..... there are two switches on the clutch. One for the neutral safety switch and the other as part of the cruise control. I was messing with the cruise control...... I was looking over on Pennocks and I landed on a page where Bloozberry was helping someone else out on the Neutral switch and showing picture and I realized the switch he was showing was not the switch I had been working with....

                                Short story long, I pulled the plug out, shorted the two wires, again yellow and another colour and low and behold the car turned over from the ignition...

                                What a journey this has been. I don't think I am getting fuel pump pressure yet though so on to the next item of entertainment......

                                Cheers
                                Don
                                308 Ferrari replica
                                Prova Countach 5000S

                                Comment

                                Unconfigured Ad Widget

                                Collapse
                                Working...
                                X