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  • txbuilder
    replied
    I really like the EV idea from an environmental viewpoint but when you factor in what it takes to generate the electricity to charge the car I am not sure they are as "green" as some would like to think. I drive a Geo that gets me 50+ MPG and I often drive over 100 miles in a day running around the Dallas area chasing parts and such. I have looked into what it would cost to build an EV that would work for me and by the time I figure the initial cost and the running costs it just won't work out for my situation. I think the ideal would be something that had a small, very efficient diesel engine powering a generator that would extend the range by charging the battery when I am stopped somewhere but not necessarily have enough charging power to directly drive the electric motor. Until someone invents better, more affordable batteries the EV will be at a decided disadvantage to the IC powered vehicle.

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Originally posted by chimaera View Post
    I dont want to star a war here and this is just my personal view on it and dot get me wrong. The concept of EV type cars are great and I would have liked mine to be EV, but there is a major flaw with the idea and that is batteries. Unlike your regular combustion engine, EV car preaty much has to be plugged in every night. As grocery getters and run about to the mall etc. they are perfect.

    Problems I see with them as true electric
    limited distance
    time to recharge, mind you some can be carged on couple of hours but need the provided power for it.
    typical setup is heavier then convensional combustion engine
    limited places where you can plug the car in to have it recharge

    what I like is
    acceleration is quick provided you have enough batteries

    what would be nice is a hybrid ie small gas engine that runs electric generator to extend range and recharge if parked that does not have a plug for charging
    No worries, that's exactly what this thread is for. It's the back and forth that will either identify real issues that need to be dealt with, or add some clarity to popular misconceptions.

    It's true that the EV version of a car can be heavier, but you have to remember that ~90% of the total vehicle weight will be below the upper lip of your rim. That is, if the chassis is done properly with the pack below floor level. A CG that low makes for really nice handling.

    You"re also spot on with the initial expense of lithium batteries... it really is a hard pill to swallow. For an EV to make any sense to non-treehuggers, the car would HAVE to be a daily driver. If you size the pack properly for it's actual daily use then the more miles you drive, the more money you save. There is no hope to recoup the cost of the pack and begin to save money if the car is a garage queen or sunday night cruiser.

    What I've discovered with this jeepney project I'm working on is that, if I finance a set of floodies to a driver for a year and factor in the cost of charge, he would be able to add another 25% to his daily income. That's while he's paying off the pack. After the pack is paid off, he adds 75% to his daily income. If he takes care of the pack, he should be able to go 2 plus years before needing replacement. That's a substantial increase in income for anyone. If he's smart and saves some of that money to go lithium, than those savings increase dramatically; not to mention the performance and range. All that is just the savings from his diesel costs at current rates. It doesn't even take into account the money he saves in maintenance and repairs.

    You can't compare the pack to an empty gas tank, it's not the same thing. You have to compare the price of the pack to the amount you would've spent on fuel for the life of your particular pack, minus the cost of charge.

    The green aspect is a byproduct to me. (Much like the 80% of wasted energy into heat and noise is for engines.) It's merely a novelty to most. It's the economics that will eventually convert people. Like I explained on the tesla thread, I spend $7800 on my commute yearly in gas. If I had gone electric earlier, I would only be spending ~$800 a year in electricity for charging. $7000/year is a lot of money over the expected 10 year life span of a properly maintained lithium pack. I would not be willing to give up that kind of savings for those few times a year I would need to go on an extended trip. That's what the dodge ram will be for.

    Leave a comment:


  • chimaera
    replied
    I dont want to star a war here and this is just my personal view on it and dot get me wrong. The concept of EV type cars are great and I would have liked mine to be EV, but there is a major flaw with the idea and that is batteries. Unlike your regular combustion engine, EV car preaty much has to be plugged in every night. As grocery getters and run about to the mall etc. they are perfect.

    Problems I see with them as true electric
    limited distance
    time to recharge, mind you some can be carged on couple of hours but need the provided power for it.
    typical setup is heavier then convensional combustion engine
    limited places where you can plug the car in to have it recharge

    what I like is
    acceleration is quick provided you have enough batteries

    what would be nice is a hybrid ie small gas engine that runs electric generator to extend range and recharge if parked that does not have a plug for charging

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Well it looks like a change of plans for me. I've been given an opportunity to set up shop back home and throw my hat in the ring replacing the jeepney with an EV alternative. Current alternative is an unappealing extended chinese golf cart.

    I plan on adding that mad mechanics touch to the jeepney, trike, fx, taxis and owner types. The 2 seater is going to have to be thrown on to the backburner.

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Originally posted by LamboIllinois View Post
    Have you heard about the battery prototype that a group at the University of Illinois made? The anode & cathode were built using nano-spheres which greatly increases the ability to move electrons. They were saying that hours of charge time would become minutes & minutes would become seconds.

    trukr, where do I find the EV album? Regarding my EV setup, I don't have any specific design other than an AC motor & lithium batteries. I'm just absorbing ideas.
    Here's a couple you can flip through.DIY Electric Car Garage - index

    EV Photo Album: Our Electric Cars on the Web

    On the diy site look for posts by mizlplix. He's ran both direct and auto.


    No I haven't read anything about that study. A really high C rating would be nice, but we would still need a way to pull that much power that fast without lighting up the wiring at home. Sounds good for commercial charging stations though.

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Originally posted by FUGAZZIDESIGN View Post
    Trukr, you asked wich setup i was going with for the motors, we have decided on the porsche setup.
    Stacked motors are puuurty.

    Here's a guy in the EU that does twin and triple AC conversions on exotics.
    Attached Files

    Leave a comment:


  • FUGAZZIDESIGN
    replied
    Trukr, you asked wich setup i was going with for the motors, we have decided on the porsche setup.

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Here's a link to a calculator for hp at a given speed.

    Aerodynamic & rolling resistance, power & MPG calculator - EcoModder.com

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    There's no question about the performance benefits of a hybrid set up for performance. It's been done forever in trains.

    I think for a hybrid or any type of EV to make financial sense, you would have to save enough money in fuel costs to replace the pack for free... at a minimum. Then you still have to worry about the maintanence, limited life span and associated costs for the gas engine and its support systems. This just goes back to the way cars are already. A never ending expense that constantly depreciates with a limited usable life span.

    I do like the idea of a genset you can rent and add for long trips. The genset would run at a constant ideal rpm and only provide enough power to maintain hwy speed plus say 20%. All acceleration, inclines and headwinds would draw from the pack. Most cars only need about 25hp to maintain hwy speeds, add a little on top of that to slowly replenish your pack and cross country travel becomes worry free. The trick would be to get it small enough to not need a trailer to tow it, and removable so it doesn't become a burden when not needed.

    I think this is when a twin motor build becomes ideal. Once freeway speeds are achieved one motor can switch from traction to generator. Then you wouldn't need a genset, but just a small engine instead.

    Leave a comment:


  • mr. K
    replied
    well for starters, from the cursus i took ( okay, it was an indealer cursus, so everything is made to look better than it really is ) but its seriously performance enhancing. for short trips to get groceries or visiting grandma, its nice to drive all electric, quiet and relaxed, and no fuel burnt. for sportcars this will be different. yet even with this volvo v60 (the diesel engine already is a 215hp - 440nm engine ) but the electric engine boosts it to a total of 285hp - 640nm to 120kmh, after that it quits. but it will do 0-100kmh or 0-60mph in 6.0 seconds

    Leave a comment:


  • dratts1
    replied
    I pretty much agree with you about hybrids. The 918 Porsche is something else though.
    Originally posted by trukr View Post
    There are quite a few existing conversions already, but you are absolutely correct about the difficulties. The conversions have limited room for batteries and therefore suffer from limited range. 120 or so miles seems to be the upper limit, 60 to 70 seems to be the norm.

    I've been factoring a good 6 to 8 inches into the floor for batteries in my chassis. The seating position will be similar to an exotic, but the overall height of the car will be comparable to a 300m. I'm designing the chassis to use the 300m as a donor including the gas engine, but with the ability to easily convert to electric when the time is right for the owner.

    They do already have stage 2 and stage 3 fast chargers. A stage 2 will fully charge in 3-4 hours. The stage 3 will charge I believe up to 90% in 20-30 minutes. Also the "Better Place" concept of battery swapping stations could be a possiblitlity with Tesla recently demonstrating a 90 second full pack swap in one of their test cars. The average stop in a gas station is 7 minutes.

    I've been following the drama of Better Place and Shai Agassi and have decided to access my packs from underneath as well. This way, if there is a standard pack size that becomes available it will be easier for people that have my chassis to take advantage of it. It's wishful thinking for the future and the possibility of swap stations. Either way, it'll make it easier to pull the pack to work on it. This also leaves the possibilty of purchasing a small pack for your daily commute, then renting a large one for extended trips.

    With a proper tube chassis in the 500-700lb range, and composite bodies in the few hundred pound range, there is room for a healthy pack size. The weight of the finished vehicle will be comparable to an everyday modern car. The important thing is for people to size their pack for what they ACTUALLY NEED on a daily basis. Not for the once or twice a year trip.

    As far as hybrids go, I don't really see a point. It's like dragging around both your wife and mistress at the same time. You may think your getting the best of both worlds but what you'll end up with is two pissed off women trying to figure out how to take your money. Your mpg is never that great, and you still need to deal with replacing the pack one day. Extended range hybrids are a little better, but you lose range on a daily basis carrying around the gas engine that you may only need a few times a year.

    Leave a comment:


  • LamboIllinois
    replied
    Have you heard about the battery prototype that a group at the University of Illinois made? The anode & cathode were built using nano-spheres which greatly increases the ability to move electrons. They were saying that hours of charge time would become minutes & minutes would become seconds.

    trukr, where do I find the EV album? Regarding my EV setup, I don't have any specific design other than an AC motor & lithium batteries. I'm just absorbing ideas.

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Originally posted by MacGyver View Post
    I don’t have much knowledge on this subject but am very interested. Please keep the info coming.
    That's exactly what I wanted to hear. As much as I like electric cars, all the images of converted geos, saturns, s10s and stock civics hurts my soul. The bugs I don't mind.

    Some interest from kit car owners would be awesome. Feel free to throw out concerns and deal breakers. Maybe as a forum community we can figure a few out.

    Leave a comment:


  • trukr
    replied
    Originally posted by mr. K View Post
    i've had the privilege to take part in a cursus about a hybrid car. the volvo v60. basicly, the main problem with electric cars, is batteries. you cant fill them up in a minute like petrol, wich makes it alot less attractive, but mostly, the weight and size. those batteries are seriously heavy, wich is not good for performance cars, but those things are so big, that the chassis has to be redesigned. for a space frame build, it can be done, but to modify a existing car, is nearly impossible.
    There are quite a few existing conversions already, but you are absolutely correct about the difficulties. The conversions have limited room for batteries and therefore suffer from limited range. 120 or so miles seems to be the upper limit, 60 to 70 seems to be the norm.

    I've been factoring a good 6 to 8 inches into the floor for batteries in my chassis. The seating position will be similar to an exotic, but the overall height of the car will be comparable to a 300m. I'm designing the chassis to use the 300m as a donor including the gas engine, but with the ability to easily convert to electric when the time is right for the owner.

    They do already have stage 2 and stage 3 fast chargers. A stage 2 will fully charge in 3-4 hours. The stage 3 will charge I believe up to 90% in 20-30 minutes. Also the "Better Place" concept of battery swapping stations could be a possiblitlity with Tesla recently demonstrating a 90 second full pack swap in one of their test cars. The average stop in a gas station is 7 minutes.

    I've been following the drama of Better Place and Shai Agassi and have decided to access my packs from underneath as well. This way, if there is a standard pack size that becomes available it will be easier for people that have my chassis to take advantage of it. It's wishful thinking for the future and the possibility of swap stations. Either way, it'll make it easier to pull the pack to work on it. This also leaves the possibilty of purchasing a small pack for your daily commute, then renting a large one for extended trips.

    With a proper tube chassis in the 500-700lb range, and composite bodies in the few hundred pound range, there is room for a healthy pack size. The weight of the finished vehicle will be comparable to an everyday modern car. The important thing is for people to size their pack for what they ACTUALLY NEED on a daily basis. Not for the once or twice a year trip.

    As far as hybrids go, I don't really see a point. It's like dragging around both your wife and mistress at the same time. You may think your getting the best of both worlds but what you'll end up with is two pissed off women trying to figure out how to take your money. Your mpg is never that great, and you still need to deal with replacing the pack one day. Extended range hybrids are a little better, but you lose range on a daily basis carrying around the gas engine that you may only need a few times a year.

    Leave a comment:


  • mr. K
    replied
    i've had the privilege to take part in a cursus about a hybrid car. the volvo v60. basicly, the main problem with electric cars, is batteries. you cant fill them up in a minute like petrol, wich makes it alot less attractive, but mostly, the weight and size. those batteries are seriously heavy, wich is not good for performance cars, but those things are so big, that the chassis has to be redesigned. for a space frame build, it can be done, but to modify a existing car, is nearly impossible.

    Leave a comment:

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