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  • Whatís your opinion on paint

    Whatís your opinion

    Iím trying to make a decision deciding to paint my build with single stage or two stage.
    Since the color will be a non metallic I was leaning towards single stage.

    Whatís your opinion and why?

    Thanks in advance for your feedback.
    My Projects:

    http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...y-project.html
    http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...-facelift.html
    http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...430-build.html

  • #2
    I had my 308 painted two stage and the painter added a couple extra coats of clear. This gives good depth to the paint and allows for wet sanding to smooth out the finish.

    He told me it isn't any harder to paint, just longer as there are more coats...... I wouldn't know the technical details of single stage vs. two stage.

    Good luck with the painting. I am looking forward to seeing it in colour.

    Cheers
    Don
    308 Ferrari replica
    Prova Countach 5000S

    Comment


    • #3
      I would always use base-clear 2 stage paint for ease of maintenance. There is a good reason that OEM's went to it years ago. I hate the mess of polishing single stage, and it's simply harder to keep a shine on. Not to mention never having the depth of clarity that a good clear coat over a vibrant base will give. You could single stage jambs and under bonnet/trunk, etc. But that's all I would do.

      Comment


      • #4
        +2 on base/clear.
        Originally posted by RUSHAVED View Post
        I would always use base-clear 2 stage paint for ease of maintenance. There is a good reason that OEM's went to it years ago. I hate the mess of polishing single stage, and it's simply harder to keep a shine on. Not to mention never having the depth of clarity that a good clear coat over a vibrant base will give. You could single stage jambs and under bonnet/trunk, etc. But that's all I would do.

        Comment


        • #5
          Mac,

          As a PPG Certified Automotive Refinish Technician (Gold), I want to urge you to using a 2 stage (base coat/clear coat) paint system. The benefits of the two stage system far out weigh the "simplicity" of a one stage coating.

          You'll have more options and you'll be left with a far superior finish over the years with a proper 2 stage application. I can get into the exact chemical make ups and specifics if you need... but as a general, I would seriously suggest doing a 2 stage spray.

          If you need help, please ask (the only bad question is the one that goes unasked, even the simple questions answered correctly is worth more than you can imagine)... your a good man and I'm willing to help you any way that I can.

          -Active
          CJ

          Comment


          • #6
            Hello Mac.... this is just my opinion based on what I have experienced over the last 20 years of painting. I am an Air craft painter for Helicopters on the Gulf coast. I also paint cars from my shop at home on the spare time. I deal with alot of paint abuse and longevity issues, and have dealt with many products and manufacturers along the way. Proving and/or debunking their claims as "leaders" in their respective paint industries.


            Based on that. Well, its not a perfectly simple answer. Single stage is of course easy and fast to apply. Any good single stage polyurethane or urethane paint can be sanded and buffed. Some easier than others. Base coat/clear coats have incredible depth and a top shelf product will last a long time. But you have to spray the extra coats as compared to single stage. In my business we have found that the single stage paints hold up better for corrosion. But that's not necessarily an issue for our builds since they are fiberglass or other such substrates, not metals. We have found that most single stages fade a few shades over the years, especially reds, yellows, etc. But even with the fading, they provided exceptional corrosion control. Base clear coat jobs for some of our costumers, did not provide longest term corrosion values but the colors held up great. Seems the UV protectants in high end Clear's hold out the Sun's harmful effects better.

            What we have come up with for best protection and overall color retention in our field is this (when our clients will agree): Single stage paints (polyurethanes and Urethane's alike), have great pigmentation and great adhesion to a properly prepared, and primed substrate. Most automotive base/clears have a lacquer or air dried base coat and an epoxy/activated clear coat. The clears hold up well but in time can peel off the oxidizing base coat. So what we do for customer jobs is combine the two. As such. Prime and paint your vehicle with your high end ( don't cheat yourself) single stage paint. Applying at least 3 coats. Max of 4 to 5 mils thickness. After its fully cured, Using 400 to 600 Grit, carefully color sand that paint job to remove blemishes and orange peel from the part. If you over sand and break through or create shadowing because you sanded too deep, just repaint that one part and re-sand that part later. Once the car is completely sanded, re mask it for clear coat and apply your best clear over the sanded single stage. The finish is unbelievable and the color retention you will achieve is second to none. Because you sanded the single stage, (with the proper gun and equipment), your clear should be extremely slick requiring very little sand and buff effort. It is hard to beat that clear coat depth, and clear sands and buffs much easier that single stages. Not such a mess. I know this makes a little more work but I assure you its something to stand proud of.

            I do this with all my single stage paints, if the costumer is paying enough of course, because I know its gonna hold true for a very long time. Single stage and base coat/clear coat each have great qualities. Combine the best of both.......

            Just my opinion......And I of course understand that our builds will never see the abuse that Air Craft get. They are usually pampered and garage kept, But, I just threw it out there. Because I know this works for the long haul.

            Thanks
            Mitch
            Keep dreaming if you want to, I'm building mine!

            Comment


            • #7
              I too have painted airframes of all sorts. Jets and Heli's, private and commercial. A lot of these are pressurized cabins, and those that are not are still well abused. The corrosion protection of single stage should not (and I have never seen in practice) outweigh that of dual stage. Corrosion protection comes from the undercoat and preparation. I think painting with a single stage, waiting for it to dry, and sanding and spraying clear over it is a painfully slow process that wouldn't have any benefit. You have to remember that too much material is as detrimental to a finish as too little material. Standard base clear will be great on any of the cars being built here. Just my .02.

              Comment


              • #8
                Hi mac

                Personally i would use a basecoat and clearcoat even if it's a non metallic buddy

                You can get a far better Finnish and you can polish up the clearcoat and get a glass type Finnish.i have I'n past on cars for show or for stands painted I'n basecoat with 2 coats of clearcoat then I've wet flatted and then re laquerd to get an extra glossy deep shine.time consuming but worth it..

                What colour are you going for buddy ??

                Comment


                • #9
                  OK - OK - OK You all talked me into the 2 stage finish.

                  Thanks for making up my mind guys.

                  I am concidering using a Red Nason base with Nason Selectclear 497. Do you all think one gal of each would be enough or shoud I go for 2 gal of the clear just to be safe?

                  Mitch,
                  I appreciate your long wright up explaining your best practices. Although this build won’t see the abuse a daily driver will receive. It will spend more time in the garage than anywhere else.

                  For that reason, I think the standard 2 stage will last for many years without issue.
                  My Projects:

                  http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...y-project.html
                  http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...-facelift.html
                  http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...430-build.html

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    macgyver 2 stage and all you need is one gallon, actually you will have some left . good luck

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OK- I think I decided on a color. I think I will be going with Fords Colorado Red listed on their 2010-2012 color chart.
                      It looks like an identical match to the Rosso red.
                      My Projects:

                      http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...y-project.html
                      http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...-facelift.html
                      http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...430-build.html

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Mac,

                        Is there any reason not to just use the OEM color? Typically from a paint mixing stand point, paint toner is paint toner and regardless of the vehicle its for, it really just comes out to cost of product.

                        Pearls and Metalics genuinely cost more that solid colors... but a solid red of an OEM Ford color would be comparable to cost of a solid color from OEM Ferrari.

                        Gallon Cost Example:
                        Honda OEM Grey Silver Metalic 09' (heavy pearl) was $689
                        Lamborghini OEM 0051 Black 07' (solid) was $403


                        The Lamborghini paint isn't more expensive because it's for a Lamborghini... the materials going into are just less expensive as it was a solid color. Now Lamborghini Metalics and Pearls are a bit pricy, but it is because of the cost of the pearls to get the correct effect and glimmer.


                        Not sure if this is making sense. Or maybe you checked on the two colors and the Ford is just lesser expensive for an unknown reason? Or maybe they don't offer the Ferrari OEM color within that paint line?

                        -Active
                        CJ

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You were right in the end, I would wager. Nason is DuPont's cheaper line, and likely doesn't carry a code for mixing the Ferrari color. The secret is that while Nason is just the DuPont hand-me-down line (when they update the ChromaPremier line, it's old stuff is passed to the Chroma standard line, and when that happens, Nason picks up the old Chroma standard stuff), they also get rid of all the excess mixes and codes for the Nason line. (PPG guys, think Omni vs DBC, DBU, Global, etc.) The problem DuPont had was keeping their color vibrant. The Nason line simply doesn't have the same vibrance, depth, and UV protection, almost by design. You likely couldn't tell the difference unless you put the two cars next to each other, or left them both out in the sun and watched fade. Also coverage is an issue. Nason is a third as expensive, but takes twice as many coats to cover, and requires more wet coats of clear to get the same dry film ratio to the DuPont big brother. Red would be a color I would much rather have in a line like Glasurit, or cheaper would be RM Diamont.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            RUShaved,

                            I see where you are coming from. As a PPG guy I only hear stories of the other chem lines out there, some positive while others not so much. Quality paint does cover better with more "vibrance". A good thing to note as well is if going with a lesser expensive line of paint (and also true with higher end's just not as drastic) is that the under coat will effect the top coat appearance.

                            When spraying Lamborghini's beautiful Pearl Orange, it's been a good practice of mine to paint the car yellow before going into the factory orange tri color (b/c, p/c, c/c) as that yellow will actually give the orange a better "pop", still a factory spot match and just makes the color look bit more pure. Also true with the blacks... painting black over a black primer/sealer/surfacer will add depth rather than spraying over a typical grey.

                            Although I don't spray too many Ferrari's (I'm a Lamborghini sell out), an orange or yellow sealer/base under the factory red will offer the same effect. The paint color actually doesn't change... it just gives that extra "pop" that you can't put your finger on that again makes the color look more "pure".


                            -Active
                            CJ

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Active,

                              I agree, the undercoat is what seperates the pros from the garage sprayers. I've had good luck using a white undercoat (ValueShade sealer) with the Lambo orange and the Lotus orange. I've used yellow before, and that gives it depth, but the white seems to make it brighter for me. I have used this to achieve the closest factory match also, but that is just with my experience in Glasurit, and DuPont ChromaPremier. I'm PPG certified as well, but I use far less of it, as it is typically chosen by the customer for each project, and Hot Hues with DuPont seems to draw people in, and Glasurit is a great OE match on a lot of German cars (at least for me). All of these are great paints, and a painter can't go wrong with any of them if they just understand the basics, and are not afraid to ask questions. I would be hard pressed to pull PPG product numbers from memory, where I could with DuPont and Glasurit, and some RM Diamont stuff. Sikkens too, if it's not changed much. In the end, you get what you pay for.
                              RUSHAVED
                              Junior Member
                              Last edited by RUSHAVED; 02-27-2013, 09:27 PM.

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