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  • Moulding a 360 pls. advise me

    Hi Guys,

    As some might allready know I will start my 430 build soon on the Peugeot 406 Coupe.

    The kit has lexan side windows and the original peugeot 406 windshield is used. I want to use original glass all around in my build, which means I have to perfectly replicate the roofline, pilars and rear quarters.

    I am in the very lucky position that a good friend of mine owns a real 360 and is willing to help me out! He allows me to pull moulds from his car under the condition THAT I DO NOT DAMAGE HIS CAR.... You guys can prolly imagine that I am the happiest man ever and very thankful that he gives me this opportunity.


    I have no experience in making moulds yet so that is why ALL advice is more then welcome! Firstly I want to share the steps that I think I should take to get this job done. Please check if I dont forget anything or should do things differently.


    1. Cover the car with a protective layer so the chemicals do not directly get in touch with the car's lacquer.
    - I am thinking about sticking sheets of alunium foil to the area that I want to replicate with PVA like in this video: Foil Layup for a mold release - YouTube
    What do you all think of this ?? are there any alernatives that are safer as aluminium foil isn't that strong?.

    2. Devide sections with clay/carton board.
    - where do you guys advise me to make these sections? (feel free to draw them in the below picture)
    What are the best materials to use?

    3. Apply gelcoat and let it dry for about 4 hours until it feels a bit sticky.
    Which gelcoat is recommended?

    4. Apply first layer of fibreglass + Resin.
    - For the first layer I think I should use thin sheets so that the contours will be followed nicely.
    - Roll the air bubles out with a roller.
    What weight of fibreglass is recommended?
    Which resin is recommended?

    5. Apply heavyer sheets of fibreglass + resin.
    - Roll the air bubles out with a roller.
    What weight of fibreglass is recommended?? how many layers before step 6?

    6. Apply strengthening bars.
    What material should I use?? Plastic tubes? Metals concrete bars?
    Do I have to roughen the bars up?
    Where do you think I should place them?

    7. Apply sheets of fibreglass + resin.
    - Roll the air bubles out with a roller.

    8. Remove mould after 3 weeks.
    - Drill holes in the sections to allow bolts to go through before removal.



    OTHER QUESTIONS:

    - Which quantitys of gelcoat should I order? Which type is best?
    - Which quantitys of resin should I order? Which type is best?
    - Which quantitys of Fibreglass matting per type I am needing?
    - Which tools are a MUST have?
    - Which tools are NICE to have?

    - I don't think the owner will be happy if I remove all te window rubbers.... so they will be visible in the finished panels. I will have to cut them out afterwards which means I just have the outer shell of the car that is visible to the eye and not the rails (I Don't know if that is the right name for that part) where the window rubbers slide in to. Is it possible to fabricate these "rails" ??? Is it hard to do?? I havent found a build thread where this is explained yet.


    Is this the way to go? As said before, all advice is more then welcome!!

    The areas where I want to take moulds from are coloured green in the below picture:

    Last edited by dman1409; 05-21-2013, 12:57 PM.

  • #2
    I really don't think you need to do this to your friends car.

    You are already getting original glass, so just use it to build your tray. Use the door glass to angle your tray and windshield correctly. Use the quarter windows to modify the C pillars.

    All your work will end up as a finished product.

    Your friendship will not be stressed.
    I bleed styrene, bathe in acetone, and sparkle like a Cullen in the sunlight.

    Comment


    • #3
      Seriously ?? If it was really do-able Extreme would have done it, as Ashley did try to create the most exact 360/430 replica cars, I guess someone with no real experience is considering doing a better job?

      There is more to the Extreme build than exact roof lines etc, it is more about many other factors, With a little tweaking you could end up with something very convincing , but I think you are going down a very long path to a possible failure, but please don`t take my word for it at all, what would I know? I only built two of them.

      May I suggest you get on the Extreme owners club forum and ask the many on there, for advice on this matter.

      I am not having a go I just think its crazy what you are proposing.

      Please post your improved Extreme pictures when you have completed it, we may all learn something.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by clones View Post
        Seriously ?? If it was really do-able Extreme would have done it, as Ashley did try to create the most exact 360/430 replica cars, I guess someone with no real experience is considering doing a better job?

        There is more to the Extreme build than exact roof lines etc, it is more about many other factors, With a little tweaking you could end up with something very convincing , but I think you are going down a very long path to a possible failure, but please don`t take my word for it at all, what would I know? I only built two of them.

        May I suggest you get on the Extreme owners club forum and ask the many on there, for advice on this matter.

        I am not having a go I just think its crazy what you are proposing.

        Please post your improved Extreme pictures when you have completed it, we may all learn something.

        Hey Paul,

        Thanx for your response.

        I do not have a builders status on the extreme forum so I can't see the builds...

        Why do you think it is crazy what I am proposing? Pulling the mould of the car or attempting to make it more realistic? I understand en respect your skepticism, however I haven't explained what I am going to do once I have the top section of the car... I have several ideas but It is pointless to speculuate before I start cutting the donor and have the replica 360 top section...

        I really appreciate your input and I know you are an experienced builder... but please don't just only say it is crazy what I am proposing... then also substantiate your view so we can all learn... I am not just shouting things on this forum because I am sitting behind my desk and post a random idea that just came up... I have really thought this trough... I have been studying this, and other builds for more then 18 monts, allmost every day... later on, when I have completely outlined my build I will start my own thread and will be posting my findings over here so everybody can learn... but before I can do so I need to know I can make these moulds without damaging the car... I have technical experience only not so much in working with fibre glass yet... so usefull imput is more then welcome..

        Cheers
        Last edited by dman1409; 05-21-2013, 04:09 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I think it would be cheaper and easier in the long run to have glass made in the same shape as the Lexan.

          It might seem like just a simple roof section, but you also have to consider the time, money and energy it's going to take to not only get the roof right, but to also make it such that the doors close without breaking the glass, and the seals fit and line up so that it doesn't leak and make noise while you drive. Plus the A Pillars might have to be widened to fit the OEM roof, which could look odd. And what if the OEM door glass doesn't sit in the exact same position in the real car? You may require some engineering to make it sit farther in or out from the Pug's door position, and roll up correctly.
          I don't know about you guys, but I absolutely HATE working on doors. There's no room to work, the only access holes are for speakers and other odd shaped spaces, and my arms always end up scraped up and bloody. Not fun.

          The glass is going to be costly, but in the end it's going to save you a ton of headaches. Personally, if I were worried about Lexan, I'd just budget for some spare sets to swap in if the Lexan gets scratched up.

          Good luck with the build tho; I'm envious. Wish we had a good donor like the Pug for an accurate hardtop 430.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by RHK View Post
            I think it would be cheaper and easier in the long run to have glass made in the same shape as the Lexan.

            It might seem like just a simple roof section, but you also have to consider the time, money and energy it's going to take to not only get the roof right, but to also make it such that the doors close without breaking the glass, and the seals fit and line up so that it doesn't leak and make noise while you drive. Plus the A Pillars might have to be widened to fit the OEM roof, which could look odd. And what if the OEM door glass doesn't sit in the exact same position in the real car? You may require some engineering to make it sit farther in or out from the Pug's door position, and roll up correctly.
            I don't know about you guys, but I absolutely HATE working on doors. There's no room to work, the only access holes are for speakers and other odd shaped spaces, and my arms always end up scraped up and bloody. Not fun.

            The glass is going to be costly, but in the end it's going to save you a ton of headaches. Personally, if I were worried about Lexan, I'd just budget for some spare sets to swap in if the Lexan gets scratched up.

            Good luck with the build tho; I'm envious. Wish we had a good donor like the Pug for an accurate hardtop 430.
            Thanx for the imput! As for the lexan worries... Regulations require glass.. so lexan is not legal here because you cant smash it when your car is in the water for example...

            I understand what you mean with the doors I hate it to!! A also have to re-engineer the rails etc to line up correctly , that will be a challenge!... but hey, I am not in a hurry ... To prevent the original glass from breaking while trying to fit it in the doors etc... I wil make a fibreglass replica of it them that I use for fitting and adjusiting the door systems and rubbers etc...( like Macgyver did for his windscreen)

            At eurospares you can buy all the glass needed for around 3100 euro's... that is the hood,windshield, quarters and sideglass... the rubber gaskets are expensive though... they are around 500 each...

            Replicating the lexan window glasses will cost over 5000 euro's just for the 2 sides (!!!!!) heheh

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by trukr View Post
              I really don't think you need to do this to your friends car.

              You are already getting original glass, so just use it to build your tray. Use the door glass to angle your tray and windshield correctly. Use the quarter windows to modify the C pillars.

              All your work will end up as a finished product.

              Your friendship will not be stressed.
              Have you got some more info on how this can be done? Thanx in advance!

              Comment


              • #8
                Sorry man but I have to agree with the rest of the guys. Attempting to change the entire roof may be an undertaking that will cost you a lot of time and effort. Do you really think the roof line is that far off? Why don’t you think about mounting the body on your donor car first and see how it looks first.

                As far as side glass is concerned. Make a cardboard template of the shape you need and I’m sure if you looked around hard enough you would find a suitable donor glass that you could use. Worst case, have them made from your fiberglass template.

                I would like to see your build completed in a reasonable amount of time, unlike me. I’m going on 4 years now and it’s still not done.
                My Projects:

                http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...y-project.html
                http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...-facelift.html
                http://www.madmechanics.com/forum/bu...430-build.html

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by MacGyver View Post
                  Sorry man but I have to agree with the rest of the guys. Attempting to change the entire roof may be an undertaking that will cost you a lot of time and effort. Do you really think the roof line is that far off? Why don’t you think about mounting the body on your donor car first and see how it looks first.

                  As far as side glass is concerned. Make a cardboard template of the shape you need and I’m sure if you looked around hard enough you would find a suitable donor glass that you could use. Worst case, have them made from your fiberglass template.

                  I would like to see your build completed in a reasonable amount of time, unlike me. I’m going on 4 years now and it’s still not done.
                  Hi Sean,

                  I completely understand what you say... but my willingness to go for oem glass is that plastic windows are not allowed where I live... so without glass side windows I can't get it on the street... so I don't really have a choice here... :-)

                  The thing is that I have looked in to having the lexan windows, that come with the kit, custom made in glass.. It cost a little over 5000 euro's (!)
                  So when I try to use glass from, let's say, a Hyunday coupe I'd have to also adjust the pilars and roofline etc...so that is why I thought I might as well go for oem glass all arround as it should line up in the best possible way...I am affraid that when I am going to use a chrysler windshield in cobination with a set of Hyundai side windows the lines/curvature is disturbed... and then again I still dont have any rear quarter glass...

                  I was also thinking that once I have the mould of the roof section.. I can also just make seperate parts like just the A pilars or the rear quarter window areas which I can fabricate in to my own panels.. having that mold give me unlimited possibilitys in fabricating the specific area that I need...


                  So far I only hear that it is a lot of work... that is true... I dont mind that I am really patient as it comes to my build... I dont mind working a coulple of months extra... I think I actually be sick when the build is done .. LOL
                  Thereby my friend doesn't drive his pony during winter so I will have plenty of time...

                  So what I would like to know is what can go wrong when making this mould and what the chances are of damaging the car (?!)

                  Cheers!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by dman1409 View Post
                    Hi Guys,

                    As some might allready know I will start my 430 build soon on the Peugeot 406 Coupe.

                    The kit has lexan side windows and the original peugeot 406 windshield is used. I want to use original glass all around in my build, which means I have to perfectly replicate the roofline, pilars and rear quarters.

                    I am in the very lucky position that a good friend of mine owns a real 360 and is willing to help me out! He allows me to pull moulds from his car under the condition THAT I DO NOT DAMAGE HIS CAR.... You guys can prolly imagine that I am the happiest man ever and very thankful that he gives me this opportunity.


                    I have no experience in making moulds yet so that is why ALL advice is more then welcome! Firstly I want to share the steps that I think I should take to get this job done. Please check if I dont forget anything or should do things differently.


                    1. Cover the car with a protective layer so the chemicals do not directly get in touch with the car's lacquer.
                    - I am thinking about sticking sheets of alunium foil to the area that I want to replicate with PVA like in this video: Foil Layup for a mold release - YouTube
                    What do you all think of this ?? are there any alernatives that are safer as aluminium foil isn't that strong?.

                    2. Devide sections with clay/carton board.
                    - where do you guys advise me to make these sections? (feel free to draw them in the below picture)
                    What are the best materials to use?

                    3. Apply gelcoat and let it dry for about 4 hours until it feels a bit sticky.
                    Which gelcoat is recommended?

                    4. Apply first layer of fibreglass + Resin.
                    - For the first layer I think I should use thin sheets so that the contours will be followed nicely.
                    - Roll the air bubles out with a roller.
                    What weight of fibreglass is recommended?
                    Which resin is recommended?

                    5. Apply heavyer sheets of fibreglass + resin.
                    - Roll the air bubles out with a roller.
                    What weight of fibreglass is recommended?? how many layers before step 6?

                    6. Apply strengthening bars.
                    What material should I use?? Plastic tubes? Metals concrete bars?
                    Do I have to roughen the bars up?
                    Where do you think I should place them?

                    7. Apply sheets of fibreglass + resin.
                    - Roll the air bubles out with a roller.

                    8. Remove mould after 3 weeks.
                    - Drill holes in the sections to allow bolts to go through before removal.



                    OTHER QUESTIONS:

                    - Which quantitys of gelcoat should I order? Which type is best?
                    - Which quantitys of resin should I order? Which type is best?
                    - Which quantitys of Fibreglass matting per type I am needing?
                    - Which tools are a MUST have?
                    - Which tools are NICE to have?

                    - I don't think the owner will be happy if I remove all te window rubbers.... so they will be visible in the finished panels. I will have to cut them out afterwards which means I just have the outer shell of the car that is visible to the eye and not the rails (I Don't know if that is the right name for that part) where the window rubbers slide in to. Is it possible to fabricate these "rails" ??? Is it hard to do?? I havent found a build thread where this is explained yet.


                    Is this the way to go? As said before, all advice is more then welcome!!

                    The areas where I want to take moulds from are coloured green in the below picture:

                    I have personally done what you are asking before. I have taken a roof splash off a very expensive car,almost exactly the area you want. Ill tell you how i did it
                    First i taped all the glass rubber moldings.
                    Then green waxed it very heavy and left the wax on. (nothing gets thu green wax)
                    Then PVA, about 4 coats or untill it starts to show the green tint.
                    Then just made the mold like you normally would (alittle less then 1/4" thick)
                    The problem is what paint the car has on it. Most paint will not be affected by this method. Im not sure about waterborn.
                    After i pulled the mold the paint looked fine but i could swear it had more orange peel then when i started.
                    You HAVE to make sure the mold will pull clean, you cant have any angle that will hook. For example,if you are doing the roof,does the quarter window resess in alitte? (This will hook) if you pull strait up.
                    Is it worth all the trouble if you dont get the shape of the window jam? (you are not pulling the glass are you)?
                    When im pulling off a painted part i prepare myself for worst case scanario (repainting the part).
                    One slip when pulling the mold and you chip or scratch the paint, I have pulled perfect splashes of things and bumped the part with the mold when pulling and made all the carefullness worthless.
                    You have to have some real balls to pull a roof splash off a ferrari-----hahaha
                    FUGAZZI DESIGN G35

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by nick200
                      dman, i can understand why you want to do this sort of thing, after all it is the details that set apart the builds. However i think on this one, the small amount of gain vs the work involved is not worth it.

                      I personally think being able to use the car is really important, so are you thinking that your new ferrari door window glass will still wind up and down ? This may not be as simple as first though. The OEM glass will have a different shape, will this fit in the 406 door window runners ? Will the 360 glass shape foul on the inner carcase of the 406 door shell ? Maybe you need 360 runners to make it work , again - will the 360 runners fit in the 406 door ?

                      You could make a fibreglass replica of the glass to help align seals, but its not going to bend in the same way as glass and fibreglass can warp over time, so you may end up with perfectly aligned seals for the wrong profile !

                      If you absolutely want to continue, i would buy enough OEM 360 glass for one side, mount these with the kit as supplied , then this way you can see how far out the replica roof panel is. Then you have the choice to modify the replica roof panel ( which will be alot less work than taking moulds of an original )

                      However ... most of the fun of building these is solving the challenges , so its not always about the easiest way to do something ! Enjoy.
                      Hi Nick!

                      Thanx for your comment. As stated in my reply to macgyver I have to use glass in my build due to regulations.. I would have used the lexan windows if it was allowed.... trust me! hehehe

                      The problems you mention of the windows not going down I have thought of.... actually, when building this kit by the book, the supplyed lexan windows won't go down all the way also! Luckally the guy's at Vdesign have solved this problem by altering the peugeot's outer door shell and runners...

                      As for the fibre glass templates... I can make as many as I want once I have bought the glass so I totally agree with you on buying enough glass for one side to start with!

                      You mentioned the problem of altering the roof panel ... I dont think the problem is in that.. The roofpannel will rest on top of the peugeot's foofliners
                      below I have made an explaination of my findings so far... I hope that makes my line of thaught about this case a bit more clear...

                      Any thoughts anyone?





                      On the below picture A friend of mine, which owns an extreme 360, layed an oem quarter window over his citcar's quarter... please see the pics below... you can see that the quarter is not that far off... which might be a good thing...

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        You've certainly put some thought into this.

                        Just a random thought .....if you sat the lower half of the kit 10mm higher over the chassis, would that give you more scope to play around with the roof lines ?

                        But then maybe it would raise the stance of the car too....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by FUGAZZIDESIGN View Post
                          I have personally done what you are asking before. I have taken a roof splash off a very expensive car,almost exactly the area you want. Ill tell you how i did it
                          First i taped all the glass rubber moldings.
                          Then green waxed it very heavy and left the wax on. (nothing gets thu green wax)
                          Then PVA, about 4 coats or untill it starts to show the green tint.
                          Then just made the mold like you normally would (alittle less then 1/4" thick)
                          The problem is what paint the car has on it. Most paint will not be affected by this method. Im not sure about waterborn.
                          After i pulled the mold the paint looked fine but i could swear it had more orange peel then when i started.
                          You HAVE to make sure the mold will pull clean, you cant have any angle that will hook. For example,if you are doing the roof,does the quarter window resess in alitte? (This will hook) if you pull strait up.
                          Is it worth all the trouble if you dont get the shape of the window jam? (you are not pulling the glass are you)?
                          When im pulling off a painted part i prepare myself for worst case scanario (repainting the part).
                          One slip when pulling the mold and you chip or scratch the paint, I have pulled perfect splashes of things and bumped the part with the mold when pulling and made all the carefullness worthless.
                          You have to have some real balls to pull a roof splash off a ferrari-----hahaha
                          Hi matt,

                          Thanx for your info!! Great!

                          Below I have listed some qoutes from your reply with my questions/coments below:

                          1: "After i pulled the mold the paint looked fine but i could swear it had more orange peel then when i started."
                          Was it a red car where you were pulling the mould from? To prevent change in colour... I would like to cover the car in plastic foil so the chemicals don't get in touch with the paint...what do you think will be the best material?

                          2: "Is it worth all the trouble if you dont get the shape of the window jam? "
                          What do you mean with the window jam?? is that the area where the rubber slides in?? ( I am not native English hehe)
                          If you do mean these area's this is what I have to say about that: Having these areas also replicated would help me a lot... However,that new ferrari rubbers cost over 500 euros each (!) Maybe there are other rubbers that also do the job that are cheaper but i'd have to see about that once I am at that stage....


                          3: "(you are not pulling the glass are you)?"
                          I am also pulling the windows...and a tiny bit of the doors aswell.. I do it for 2 reasons 1) because the mould gets stronger because of the "cup-shape" 2) because I then have the exact dimensions of the angle of the A/B pillars in relation to the top edge of the door...

                          below I drew the sections I would use for the mould... I tried to do it in such a way so that the moulds dont hook...
                          Would you agree on this?



                          Last question: What would your gameplan be when you look at my last post to nick200?

                          Again thanx for your time and input!!

                          Cheers!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by nick200 View Post
                            You've certainly put some thought into this.

                            Just a random thought .....if you sat the lower half of the kit 10mm higher over the chassis, would that give you more scope to play around with the roof lines ?

                            But then maybe it would raise the stance of the car too....
                            That would the same as pulling up a chick's dress .... you would see her ass... when the ass is ugly... you dont want that !! LOL!!

                            when you higher the kit you will see the peugeot coming from underneath... thereby the angle/kink/line of the A-pillar/roofline have te be changed to fit the window...
                            Last edited by dman1409; 05-22-2013, 03:44 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I came accross these threads on Extreme OC ..

                              http://extremeoc.co.uk/index.php/topic,2154.0.html

                              http://extremeoc.co.uk/index.php/topic,2013.0.html

                              The last thread is about trying to get OEM side glass in the peugeot. One post in particular I find very interesting from a member called "Snobear". I quote:

                              "They don't fit.

                              I took a mould of an original drop glass so I could form my own glass but there is a substantial difference; the angle of the A pillar on the Extreme is more acute than the original, its not as convex and its also slightly longer. I ended up having to construct a new mould pretty much from scratch".

                              What I notice is that everybody is first starting their build and when they reach the point of where they are almost done, think aout the windows.... that is exactly why I bring this issue up before I even start...

                              So what we have learned here so far is that even if you have a close match like the audi A3 Window, as described in the first link, alteration of the A-pillar is absolutely required... As I have to make adustments anyway I might as well make them for all the OEM glass..

                              What do you guys think??
                              Last edited by dman1409; 05-22-2013, 07:14 PM.

                              Comment

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